5.3, LS1 autox questions.

[JMortensen]

I have myself all screwed around and confused.

 

My tentative plan had been to run a 5.3L for autox. I had thought that this was the best choice for me because I could run X Prepared and have a min weight of 2350 with that displacement. I had once figured out weight for the 5.7 and it was something like 100 lbs heavier, which is a pretty big deal in autox. Plus the corners are really tight so I don't think I'll be able to put down much more than 350whp, which I understand is pretty easy to get from either engine.

 

So I checked car-part.com and found a 5.3 and the junkyard which is several hours drive wants $1300 for a long block. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I thought I could get a complete pull out with all the FI and accessories for under $1000. Now that I'm looking, I'm not seeing them.

 

Since I found that the L33 seems to be hard to come by, I've gone back looking for the exact weight penalty for the 5.7L, and I can't find it anywhere. I also thought that weights were similar for EM, but it looks like I could run at 2100 lbs in that class, so if nothing else I know that my memory can't be trusted...

 

So I guess my questions are:

1. Can anyone point me to the SCCA regs that cover XP, since I can't seem to find them anymore?

2. What is a good price for an L33 longblock?

3. If I do end up going LS1, is there a reputable dealer that everyone uses?

 

Also mulling transmission choices. Thinking really hard about a Super T10. I understand this would drop about 80 lbs over a T56, and I don't need double overdrive for autox. I'm thinking especially if I do go with an LS1 I should be able to find an LS1/T56 combo, where if I went L33 I'd have to buy the tranny separately anyway. Part of me wants the weight savings. The other part seems to think that saving the weight will add $$$ and time to the project. Any advice here would also be appreciated.

[JMortensen]

OK, Cary came up with the regs:

EM is 1800 lbs with driver for a modded tub. I think that my subframe connectors make mine "modded", but I'll have to double check that. I think it's safe to say I'm not getting anywhere near that min weight.

 

XP is 1200 lbs + 200 lbs per liter. There is some discrepancy as to whether they round up or down, so a 5.3 might be counted as a 5L and a 5.7 might be a 6L. Best case scenario the 5.3 gets a min weight of 2200 lbs. I think I might get close with the Super T10. Worst case on the 5.3 is 2260. For the 5.7 it would either be 2340 or 2400. I think either of those should be pretty easy to do with the LS1.

[BRAAP]

Jon,

I just purchased a 5.3 two weeks ago and swapped it in my wifes '01 Suburban, (hers seized a roller in the #4 intake lifter. Motor just needs a cam and lifter which we have in a '01 Vette LS-1 short block that is had been sitting in the barn for a few years, (rusted cylinders). Trying to talk Ron into installing this 5.3 in his 510!!!).

When I purchased the used replacement 5.3, I specificly wanted a good condition low mileage engine, cost a little more according to John at B & R. It was sold to me as long block, but still came with tons of extra parts, at a very nice price to Rusch Motorsports. John at B&R here Portland told me this engine typically retails for $1500. It came complete with intake manifold TB, all sensors, all 8 coils, engine EFI harness, water pump, A/C bracket, motor mounts, exhaust manifolds and few other goodies not considered part of the long block. All those extras are as is, free bonus with no warranty, but they do warranty the long block itself

 

Not being up on the rules, but you mentioned displacement and minimum weight. FWIW, the 4.8 and 5.3 are the exact engine, same exact block intake etc. The ONLY difference between the the two long blocks is obviously the shorter stroke,, the 4.8 uses a longer rod, and uses a flat top piston. The 5.3 is a dished piston, same exact bore. I will be weighing the 5.3 I removed from my wifes Burb in bare short block form, comparing it to the 01' Vette LS-1 we have here, in the exact same short block trim to get and idea of just how much of weight penalty the 5.3 suffers vs the aluminum LS. Might have that done this weekend, if time allows.

 

 

If you want any specific pics, dimensions, etc, just drop me a line...

 

4.8-5.3-6.0 "general" exterior dimensions;

Courtesy, PacePerformance

[BRAAP]

Jon,

 

In looking for a 5.3, be aware, the 4.8 is the same engine. Now I'm not saying you should install a 5.3 and claim it as a 4.8 for lower weight penalty, because the officials could ask you to pull a spark plug if you are ever protested Not sure if the injectors are different flow rate or not.

In your search for a 5.3, thought you might find this helpful.

 

Courtesy of PERA

 

 

Courtesy of PERA

http://www.pera.org/articles/eb120317.htm'>http://www.pera.org/articles/eb120317.htm

 

 

Quick: Is That A 4.8L Or A 5.3L GM Gen III Engine?

 

by Roy Berndt

During our research of the General Motors Gen III engine family we continued to run up against a stumbling block of exterior identification between the 4.8L and 5.3L engines. It seemed that no matter who we spoke with, be it core suppliers, wrecking yards, engineers or rebuilders, when asked how they differentiated between the 4.8L or 5.3L engine from the exterior, no one had a solid answer. As a matter of fact no one had any answer.

So we thought we would look at the internal component differences between these two engines and perhaps come to some solution of external identification.

 

These engines came on the scene in 1999 in General Motors truck applications and were the upcoming replacement for the original design small block engines (GenIE). They were a spinoff of the LS1, 5.7L passenger applications used in the Corvette, Camaro and Firebird two years prior. Just so we have all the ducks in a row, both of these engines are OHV, pushrod V8 engines with cast iron blocks and aluminum cylinder heads.

Because both engines use the same block (c/n 12551358), GM seemed to play what may be described as a cruel, twisted joke on us since it cast "4.8/5.3" right on the block both in the front and in the rear in large numbers. The only problem is that you never really know which engine that you have from the exterior. The standard cylinder bore for both engine applications is 96mm (3.779˝) however the stroke for the 4.8L is 83mm (3.268˝) and has a crankshaft casting number of 12553482 while the stroke for the 53L is 92mm (3.622˝) and that crankshaft casting number is 12552216. Looking at the two crankshafts just standing next to each other they do not have what you would consider an obvious difference in appearance.

The connecting rods for the two engines do provide us some visual identifiable differences. The 4.8L connecting rod is longer in length and has the casting number 121 with an additional boss on the thrust face. The 5.3L connecting rod is shorter with casting number 143 and no additional boss on the thrust face. Both connecting rods are PM (powder metal) with a "crack" parting face.

There is also a difference between the pistons of these two engines, the 4.8L has a flat dome and the 5.3L has a cup dome. Another thing that we noticed is that the 4.8L pistons from OE had a pink ink mark in the pin area and the 5.3L had a green mark.

 

The cylinder head for both engines is aluminum with a casting number of 862, however on the deck face area in a small cavity there is a 4.8 cast onto the cylinder head. Do not be confused by this cast number for the cylinder head is for both 4.8L and 5.3L engines.

So how does any of this help with our ability to discern between these two engines from the exterior? If the oil pan is off, you could look at the crankshaft casting number, only every time you want to do that your odds are about as good as an open face peanut butter and jelly bread hitting the floor face up. But you can look at the connecting rods and see if that additional boss is there, you have eight chances to do that! But do you really want to pull the oil pan if you don’t have to?

That leaves us with one option, pull a single or multiple spark plug(s) and look down the hole. Optimally, if you have a bend-a-light that will go into the spark plug hole you will have a better view. If you see a flat top piston, it is a 4.8L.

 

If you have a cup top piston you have a 5.3L. That is the best we were able to find as a quick identifier. But it works and it is relatively easy. Best of all, it is definitive. So if you have someone who is trying to sell you a 5.3L you might want to pull a plug and make certain that it has a cup top piston, otherwise ...well, I guess it could always be an honest mistake.

SourcePERA casting identification research continues to be the best available information for the engine remanufacturing industry. Also be on the lookout for the new 2004 PERA Engine Application and Identification Catalog. For more information go to http://www.pera.org and contact Roy Berndt via email link.

Thanks for the numerous emails and phone calls in reference to the Gen III crankshaft reluctor wheel. For your information, the GM superceded part number for all applications is 12559353. The only available installation tooling we are aware of (including GM) is available from Goodson Shop Supplies, Winona, MN.

[heavy85]

The other part seems to think that saving the weight will add $$$ and time to the project. Any advice here would also be appreciated.

 

Pick your goal. If you want the ultimate it will take more time and $$$ - lightweight tranny (T56 is HUGE), destroked ls (aluminum block, less displacement for lower allowed weight), etc, etc. If you want to drive your car this decade I suggest getting a complete Camaro LS1/T56 and get your car to the track already. You could always upgrade later as a winter project and sell-off the T56 as you would already have the basics in place (engine mounts, fuel system, electrical, etc). I used everything from my wrecked Camaro from the harness and fuse blocks to the dipstick, throttle cable, and fuel tank and it made things a lot easier and cheaper to get it installed and running. I never even split the engine and trans as it only had 40k miles.

 

Just my 2 cents from having experienced over a year without racing when my car was in for conversion and knowing that sucks. If you want a national racer you may have to get real picky, interpret the rules REAL carefully, and spend the $$$.

 

Cameron

[mobythevan]

There are two different 5.3 LSx engines I believe. The L33 mentioned in the first post is all aluminum. The LM7 like I run is what everyone seems to be referring to which is the iron block and is identical to the 4.8. I could be wrong, but I know that ls1tech forums has the answer because I remember reading about this when I started the 5.3 swap.

[johnc]

I don't think they round up or down on the displacement number. A 5.3 should weigh 2,260 and a 5.7 should weigh 2,340. I think 2,260 is a realistic number for your car considering the extent of the cage and other modifications.

[tube80z]

Pick your goal. If you want the ultimate it will take more time and $$$ - lightweight tranny (T56 is HUGE), destroked ls (aluminum block, less displacement for lower allowed weight), etc, etc. If you want to drive your car this decade I suggest getting a complete Camaro LS1/T56 and get your car to the track already.

 

Using a T-10 or muncie isn't going to add any time to this conversion. We've been running the T10 all year and it's a known quantity. There's a special bellhousing and pilot bearing that are needed. And a special flywheel can be used that allows either old style clutches or the newer camaro/corvette clutch.

 

Cary

[tube80z]

I don't think they round up or down on the displacement number. A 5.3 should weigh 2,260 and a 5.7 should weigh 2,340. I think 2,260 is a realistic number for your car considering the extent of the cage and other modifications.

 

I think this has been fixed. But then the rules first came out it as the closest whole litre for weight.

 

Cary

[JMortensen]

Think I'm scrapping the T10 idea. Just doing some estimations with the transmission calculator here: http://www.geocities.com/z_design_studio/

 

Looks like with a 4 speed and a conservative 6250 rpm limit on a 23.5" tall tire I'd max out at 130 mph with a 3.36 and 106 with a 4.11. Since I've previously done track days and would like to do that again, I think this is going to be too big a limitation.

 

So I guess the easy solution is to use that gigantic friggin T56...

[Drax240z]

Or swap rear ends for the track days.

[z-ya]

So I guess the easy solution is to use that gigantic friggin T56...

 

--- Begin my 0.02 ----

This seems like a lot of hacking, cutting, and expense for what, 300HP? I love the 5.3 (got one in my truck), but wouldn't it be easier to just run the nicely prepped L6 you have, and see how well she does? HP is not a huge factor in autocross, chassis and driver are. Now if you run long and fast courses, then the HP might be a more significant factor.

---- End my 0.02 ----

 

Jon, what about a T5, can you find a bell housing to mate a T5 to the 5.3?

[JMortensen]

Richard, even with a 3.36 I'm still too limited on the top end.

 

--- Begin my 0.02 ----

This seems like a lot of hacking, cutting, and expense for what, 300HP? I love the 5.3 (got one in my truck), but wouldn't it be easier to just run the nicely prepped L6 you have, and see how well she does? HP is not a huge factor in autocross, chassis and driver are. Now if you run long and fast courses, then the HP might be a more significant factor.

---- End my 0.02 ----

Here's my thought process: the car is for autox for a few years, then will be tracked again as much as possible. I used to do track days with the old motor, but after changing everything in the car and fabbing quite a bit I think it's probably wise to keep it to autox for a while...

 

Current L motor runs on 95 octane and makes ~240ish whp. If I was really going to do it right I'd get a bigger cam and a better header and exhaust (probably $1K more invested there, and wouldn't make much more power, but might allow me to run pump gas). What's more, I wanted to move the L engine back, and was going to the V8 eventually anyway. So I could fab up mounts for engine and transmission, run it for a few years, then make new mounts for the V8, or I could just do the V8 and be done with it.

 

I have a line on an L33 for $1100 with 27K miles. Stock it puts out 315hp. Add a cam and exhaust, maybe some valve springs and I don't think I'm stretching at all to think that I can get an easy 350whp, and probably close to 200 ft/lbs torque increase over the L. That's HUGE. I will only need to fab up motor and trans mounts once, and I have potential to swap the engine out for a LS2 or something even bigger with all of my existing mounts, if I ever decide that I don't want to be limited to the 5.3.

 

Jon, what about a T5, can you find a bell housing to mate a T5 to the 5.3?

Bellhousings are out there and that is another option, but my understanding of the T5, even the WCT5, is that it is on the weak side and also hard to find. While there are other options like the G Force T5, they seem to add most of the weight of the T56 to get the required strength, and they're a lot more expensive than the T56.

[rags]

Just to throw my .02 into this thread, from reading all the posts it seems you want a V8, save as much weight as you can and move the weight bias back as far as you can. The LS1/T56 combo does 2 out of 3. Aluminum block V8 give you the weight reduction you're looking for with a strong trans. The trans is somewhat heavier but the weight will now be positioned further back. Also, the LS1 in stock form is going to give you a lot of power and the aftermarket seems to be very strong. Speaking from my whole 1 month of experience with an LS1

 

Joe

[z-ya]

Current L motor runs on 95 octane and makes ~240ish whp. If I was really going to do it right I'd get a bigger cam and a better header and exhaust (probably $1K more invested there, and wouldn't make much more power, but might allow me to run pump gas). What's more, I wanted to move the L engine back, and was going to the V8 eventually anyway. So I could fab up mounts for engine and transmission, run it for a few years, then make new mounts for the V8, or I could just do the V8 and be done with it.

 

I have a line on an L33 for $1100 with 27K miles. Stock it puts out 315hp. Add a cam and exhaust, maybe some valve springs and I don't think I'm stretching at all to think that I can get an easy 350whp, and probably close to 200 ft/lbs torque increase over the L. That's HUGE. I will only need to fab up motor and trans mounts once, and I have potential to swap the engine out for a LS2 or something even bigger with all of my existing mounts, if I ever decide that I don't want to be limited to the 5.3.

 

Don't forget to add custom headers, driveshaft, ECU upgrade (not sure what the stock truck ECU can compensate for), injector upgrade (Stock ones might be good for 400HP), EFI fuel pump, surge tank, etc., etc.

 

Maybe put the L6 back in there just to have some fun with it next year while you are collecting V8 parts. I don't know about you, but after reading all of the threads about this project I'm dying to drive it! I can't imagine how you feel just looking at it in your garage! I can't go more than a few months without a track day, time trial, or autocross without going stir crazy (although GTR2 has been helping in that area this winter ).

[JMortensen]

Just to throw my .02 into this thread, from reading all the posts it seems you want a V8, save as much weight as you can and move the weight bias back as far as you can. The LS1/T56 combo does 2 out of 3. Aluminum block V8 give you the weight reduction you're looking for with a strong trans. The trans is somewhat heavier but the weight will now be positioned further back. Also, the LS1 in stock form is going to give you a lot of power and the aftermarket seems to be very strong. Speaking from my whole 1 month of experience with an LS1

Weight is a KILLER in autox. The extra weight that would be required in the class I run because of the increased displacement is a problem. I think if the 4.8 actually came in an aluminum block, I'd probably go that way.

 

Don't forget to add custom headers, driveshaft, ECU upgrade (not sure what the stock truck ECU can compensate for), injector upgrade (Stock ones might be good for 400HP), EFI fuel pump, surge tank, etc., etc.

I think you mean Sanderson headers, driveshaft, MSD ignition, carb manifold, Demon 650, don't you?

 

Maybe put the L6 back in there just to have some fun with it next year while you are collecting V8 parts. I don't know about you, but after reading all of the threads about this project I'm dying to drive it! I can't imagine how you feel just looking at it in your garage! I can't go more than a few months without a track day, time trial, or autocross without going stir crazy (although GTR2 has been helping in that area this winter ).

First, thanks! I appreciate the compliment. I'm dying to drive it, believe me. It's just that I want it done. I mean "done" done. So that I can maybe play with shocks and springs and do fluid changes and replace brake parts and THAT'S IT!!! I'm going to drive this F'er into the ground when it's done, and I don't want to have to take it all back apart, fabricate a bunch more crap for it, etc. I've had 4 iterations of TC rods on this car. I want the last version to be the one I use from now on. I've had several different braking system configurations. Several different control arm configs, etc. I'm going as all out as I can, one time. That's why it's taken me so long, because I just want to do it once, and getting time/$$$/parts all together at the same time is difficult for me. The worst was the rotisserie/cage stuff. It is such a PITA that I want to make sure I get EVERY t crossed and every i dotted while I'm in there.

[meindaparish]

I'm gonna dig this one up a litter longer now. I just picked up full 5.3 vortec with all the bells whistles, ECU, and wiring for 400. it has 42,000 miles on the clock. BUT, my problem is now in the TRANNY! Its going to be a road race/ autoX z32 2 seater. So i want an M/T of course. I really don't want to spend 1000 + dollars on a heavy ass t56. So what's the options? Did anyone ever find out more on the t5/ bellhousing thing?

[JMortensen]

So i want an M/T of course. I really don't want to spend 1000 + dollars on a heavy ass t56. So what's the options? Did anyone ever find out more on the t5/ bellhousing thing?

The options that I've found are T56, TKO, T5 but then you'd have to beef it up to handle serious use, Super T10 or Muncie 4 speed. That's pretty much all I'm aware of. I think I'll end up going T56 just because I want a top speed over 135 mph and the TKO and T5 seem too expensive by the time you get everything needed to get the trans in the car. I'd love to hear another option or that I'm wrong on price on something...

[BRAAP]

I'm gonna dig this one up a litter longer now. I just picked up full 5.3 vortec with all the bells whistles, ECU, and wiring for 400. it has 42,000 miles on the clock. BUT, my problem is now in the TRANNY! Its going to be a road race/ autoX z32 2 seater. So i want an M/T of course. I really don't want to spend 1000 + dollars on a heavy ass t56. So what's the options? Did anyone ever find out more on the t5/ bellhousing thing?

 

I have just commited to using my 2001 LM7 5.3 in my '93 Z-32 coupe and will also be using a manual trans.

 

Being no stranger to building, owning, driving, autocrossing V-8 Z cars of various flavors, including a W/C T-5 behind a SBC 350 daily driver/autocrosser that ran 12.3 @ 113 MPH, for the approx 40-50 lbs the T-56 adds vs the W/C T-5, especailly in an already heavy car like the Z-32, this little "percentage" in weight the T-56 adds to the overall vehicle weight wont be noticed. (W/C T-5 and bellhousing weighs 85 lbs, T-56 and bellhousing weighs in 125-135lbs) Not too menion the T-56's abilty to handle more torque without modifications, is more readilly available, already is a direct bolt up the LSx, and with its extra gear, is less critical regarding getting the rear end ratio "just right". The trans is so low and in the middle of the car, if you have to take on a weight penalty, that is one of the better places to take it. In short I feel the T-56 offers more wins vs the piddly 40-50 lbs it would add to the overall vehicle weight.

One other plus for the T-56 in the Z-32 is the T-56 is available with different shifter locations allowing more engine mounting options fore and aft fin the engine bay to clear the rack, crossmember, firewall, etc while retaining the shifter in the stock shifter location, or location of your choosing. If you plan to cut the firewall of the Z-32, then that is not so much of an issue.

I've done a bit of research on the shifter locations the various LSx T-56s available and the T-56 definitely has a couple offerings that should cover pretty much any Hybrid scenario, not so with the T-5.

 

Link to my project with some pics of the 5.3 stabbed in the engine bay of a Z-32;

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=142025